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Post by Rabbit on Sept 18, 2006 20:44:57 GMT -5
I played a couple of hours today at my Bro's house. I played Vagyr for the first time since the new complex came out, and I must say, they really do sweep the field against Hilgaran. Four times did the computer send Jugs my way (once in a pair). I had no problem gunning them down, twice with 4 destroyers and twice with 4 battlecruisers. It's easy enough to prolong a slow retreat, while firing at the jugs until they are destroyed.
I used corvettes and capital class ships the entire way. I've found that so long as you have enough resources, you can pretty much always build more ships. The crew and officer progression never seem to be a problem except in the early game. At any rate, I ended up using a mothership, two shipyards, and two carriers. The mothership produced destroyers, the two shipyards produced battlecruisers, one carrior produced corvettes to take down small ships, and the other produced nothing but mobile refineries and resource collectors. This strategy proved itself out in the long run. I never had money problems, and I never ran out of crew or officer slots; oh, and I had lots o ships.
Battlecruisers work very well when loaded with storm corvettes. I hyperspaced them all over the place, unloaded teh vettes, and proceeded to tear things up.
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Post by Vable on Sept 19, 2006 9:16:14 GMT -5
Yep The beauty of the Vagyr is the speed and simplicity. The simplicity more than anything is what makes them powerful. The fact that your Battlecruisers have all their guns except the 'main' special gun built when they pop out. That you can research from the instant you build a research module, without the need to build a Research Station first. No 'advanced' research module. You can research ALL refinery RU fusion upgrades right off the bat. It's not their units power or any one unit that gives them the advantage. It's the lack of stepping stones at all in their progression path. Oh yes, and its easier to get the crew upgrades once they become available. (IE, you just research it.. don't have to build a station, then build crew modules)...if someone kills a hiigaran crew station...they can't build new units until they rebuild it AND all the modules. But I've said all that before. I just wish a few minor steps were inserted into the Vagyr research tree. And that they have use a 'Crew' station like the Hiigaraan...OR...at least have the crew upgrades show up as 'subsystems' on the Vagyr mothership, so they could be targeted as a subsystem. (that would be a good balance)
Back on to your strategy. Storm corvets rock. Probably the best ship you can jump with a Battlecruiser. Actually, I didn't remember the Vagyr BC being able to dock ships like the Hiigaran. Still if your able to, its good to use the Vettes. You might also consider taking a repair module on one of your carriers, which unlocks improved docking capabilities/speed/repair. This will allow your Vettes to dock and undock MUCH faster..as well as repairing them when they redock quicker as well. Though that is by far a 'down the road' end game upgrade.
Did the computer appear to use its Juggernaughts intelligently? I'm suprised they went down so easily. But I guess so. That would make it appear that the way to use them is slingshotting them via hyperspace, or using them in the defensive strat we discussed earlier.
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Post by grant on Sept 19, 2006 9:58:02 GMT -5
The computer only ever sends juggies in on on their own (or in pairs) to hit your mothership/flagship.
The Vagyr are still supperior because of their speed, but if you let hiigaran build up they can out gun the vagyr from what I have seen so far. I am building a list of where the various ships are when maxed out and so far the Hiigaran are ahead. Also their Mobile Refineries can produce 33% more RUs when maxed out then the vagyr can.
I have to agree though when playing vagyr, an expert hiigaran opponent is rather easy.
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 19, 2006 16:36:09 GMT -5
Grant's right, the comp doesn't send in jugs except by themselves. They make for great target practice.
I played a game today against two Vagyr computers set at the 'expert' level. It was tough, but I think it can be done. The computer froze up, but I think I would have won the game.
I used only fighters and capital class ships, with the exception of the mine vette. I really like this pup. He softens up the enemy at no loss to the player.
Concerning small ships: I've found that fighters have more punch than vettes, but really lack the staying power due to a small rear end. Overall, I like fighters better if you can manage to produce enough of them, because their first sweep past the enemy does soooo much damage. Today, I used defenders and the lance crafts (name?), accopmanied by destroyers and battlecruisers. The defenders are supposed to be good against both fighters and vettes, but their weaponry just doesn't penetrate the vettes. If you look at the weapons the defenders carry 3 Fetching (name?) guns, which is the same gun used by the assault craft (only the ass craft only has on of them). Of course, the defender rips apart any fighter class ship, which is why I used them. The lance craft, conversely, has two light plasma lances, and is good against both vettes and frigates. In the early game, the mothership can pretty much handle the comptuer's fighters, but she has problems with vettes and frigates.
I used a mothership (destroyer production), a carrier (continuing the economy production and small ships), and two shipards (battlecruisers). The strategy is rather simple, and overall, I actually enjoy playing Hilgaran more, simply because the build up adds addtional flavor to the game. This said, I could never take down two expert Vagyr computers with the Hilgaran.
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Post by grant on Sept 26, 2006 10:37:56 GMT -5
For some reason I have not been able to take on a vayger expert as hiigaran lately...it seems like it has gotten harder (I know it hasn't since I haven't loaded anything new) but over the past week I just can't beet them.
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 26, 2006 12:33:20 GMT -5
Grant,
I'm not able to take on V. w/ H. either at the expert level.
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Post by grant on Sept 26, 2006 12:58:06 GMT -5
Well I had been taking them on prety well...but now for some reason I can't
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Post by Vable on Sept 26, 2006 17:41:03 GMT -5
Playing Vagyr today, I beat an Expert Hiigaran in about 43 minutes.
Played again as Vagyr against what I thought was 2 expert Hiigaran's only to find that one was easy one expert after the fight (forgot to change them both) Though they were both on the same team. I beat them easily though, just around 51 minutes.
I know that I can beat Vaygr Experts using Hiigaran though. Garrett and I played against 3 expert computers (2 vagyr, 1 Hiig). We both killed a Vaygr each first, then reeled when the Hiig which had time to build up swept over our rear and flank lines. We did make a come back for a crushing victory though.
I'll try playing Hiig vs 2 Expert Vagyrs soon. That ought be sufficient to make me cry.
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Post by Vable on Sept 27, 2006 10:44:49 GMT -5
Playing Hiigaran vs 2 expert Vagyr on a 4p map.
Things started out well enough. I got honor faster than normal fending off the computers fighter strike forces. After establishing my first resourcing op, I moved to a 2nd patch, clearing one of the cpu's defenders, resource ops and carrier that were stationed there.
Having wiped out his 2nd op, I left my freshly made carrier there, and started building my 2nd resource op. I sent a distortion probe into both of my resource patches, and began the attack run with my mothership on this first Vagyr. Who at this point only had his MShip and resourcers (plus a very small contingent of fighters which my MShips defenses wiped out).
Here is where things turned south however. Just as I polished off this first Vagyrs forces and had engaged his MShip down to 2/3 life, my initial Resource Op was engaged by the other Vagyr. Who brought a mass of frigates. I began the retreat of my 1st patch of resource ops to where I had just booted the other Vagyr's MShip from, and started my MShip on a Direct route to help defend and block persuit. I let the first Vagyr go, figuring I'd be able to deal with whatever minimal fleet he could rebuild later.
The plan worked initially, I was able to intercept the main force of enemy frigates with my mothership, and started reinforcing my MShip with Ion frigates from my nearby carrier. However, as fast as I killed their frigates, they were able to reinforce faster. I ended up falling back to my resource patch with my carrier and mobile refineries. But it just wasent enough. Eventually I succumbed.
In retrospect, I think the way to overcome that situation will involve sacrificing module slot on my MShip for hyperspacing options. At the point where I lost in this particular game, It wasen't an issue of money or crew (my honor was waaaaaay above my ability to use it). It was purely a matter of not having enough forces built. Had I been able to Hyperspace away, even temporarily, I could have relied on my RU fusion and been able to have gotten my forces caught up.
So... in Summery.
Primary Directive involves an immediate move to crush the resourcing ops of the first vagyr, ending in one computer destroyed.
Secondary Directive involves going mobil. This includes the ability to hyperspace your exsisting production ships, as well as a dependable # of Refineries for mobil money production in the almost guaranteed lose of harvesting operations.
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Post by grant on Sept 27, 2006 11:20:19 GMT -5
I agree...with your analysis here...Garrett mentioned the motherhship attack run against the resourses of an enemy and I gotta say that it sounds like a good tactic...though I have not had a chace to try it out.
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 27, 2006 15:55:15 GMT -5
That was originally Ty's idea, but I'll be happy to steal the credit
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Post by Vable on Sept 27, 2006 20:06:59 GMT -5
Well,, the first part of the idea was mine. Though the Hyperspacing 2nd part was Garretts from our discussion this morning. Our super mega thundercats HoooOOOooo combo strategy. So now we just need Juggernaughts to attach to the mothership as legs, Ion destroyers as feet, Destroyers as arms, and BC's as super sock-em ninja chop hands. Cause thats how we roll. yeah. eeeeEEAsssst siiide. (of the galactic core)
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Post by grant on Sept 27, 2006 20:37:38 GMT -5
Ok...so minegun vetts are absolutly the best anti fighter/vet ship out there.
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 27, 2006 21:08:44 GMT -5
Grant,
What's the scoop? How well do they kill the small ships? Both Fighters and Vettes?
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Post by grant on Sept 28, 2006 6:46:16 GMT -5
They have a good basic gun but then they release...fast mines that really tear up fighters and vetts both...Fighters can out run the mines but only if they are in retreat...if they stick around to fight then the mines will get them sicne they are curving around and such...I think that the vetts can't out run the mines.
The mines automaticly deploy when the minelayer attacks, it is not somthing that you deploy. You just send them in to attack and as they are shooting they drop out these little explosive turds.
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