Frigate Class- basic dilemma

[Rabbit]

Stated simply, frigates have a fundamental problem that is exclusive to their class: Frigates are susceptible to destroyer attakcs, whereas fighters and corvettes easily avoid incoming fire from the larger offensive capital class ships. Even against the computer, frigate class ships seem to have this issue; and against players, well, it's becomes even more apparent. However, the problem is often minimized in late game simply because most players direct their resources to manufacturing destroyers and the other capital s

I've found the best early game strategies revolve around a force of either the fighter or corvette class ships, until there is enough research in order to begin building the offensive capital class ships.

[Vable]

This has for the most part been my experience as well. Frigates just do not hold their weight for the amount of money and time it takes to build them.
I suspect the reason that Frigates fail to be long lived in combat stems from the range that they are easily hit by both ships smaller and ships larger than their own class, making them easy targets, susceptible to anything from destroyer attacks, to bomber runs. Coupled with the slightly more expensive production slot, lengthier build time, and overall slower speeds, these ships just don't get much play.

I have not given up on Frigates entirely however. There are certain situations, where they are able to come into their own.
Oddly enough, Vagyr commanders can successfully employ frigates on the field to better effect. A rather odd fact, as 'technically' the Hiigaran forces are supposedly 'superior' in the Frigate category.
I disagreement of this disparity resides in the fact that the Vagyr's research options for a 'type' of ship, affect every ship within that production list, unlike the Hiigaran who are forced to very strictly specialize their research.
A single upgrade on the Vaygr Frigate type, will affect every frigate in their arsenal, allowing the player to crank out each type of frigate to create a balanced frigate force that has each been upgraded.
The Hiigaran on the hand cannot spair research for their frigates, as any research time that is pulled away from Ion Destroyers, or the myriad other 'must have' research lines just isn't an option.

I would be interested in hearing additional data from our sister fleets now in active duty. For now, these remain the assessment of Fleet Na'Voi Command Bulletins.

[Rabbit]

tyjer said:

Vagyr's research options for a 'type' of ship affect every ship within that production list, unlike the Hiigaran who are forced to very strictly specialize their research.

Good point. This definitely makes Vagyr more flexible when it comes to quick adaptations. Honestly, I've played only Hilgaran since the new complex release. I guess it's time to make the switch.

[Vable]

It's hard to justify switching in player vs computer, as we've already started to break down the Expert level computer with Hiigaran player vs vagyr computer. Apparently the Hiigaran computer AI was improved very little in the last relsease. So the best challange you'll get is Vagyr vs Vagyr.

Originally I had thought that the Hiigaran just needed some boost to their overall strength to compete with the Vagyr. Now however, I believe that the Vagyr need a few more road blocks put in their research methods/recruiting methods. They remain, almost more so after the patch, the stronger Player vs Player choice. It is very difficult to compete with their much faster research and efficent researching. Or lack of dependance on 'additional' capitol ships for research/recruiting.

I don't want to see the Vagyr's exsisting ship strengths dumbed down as I feel these things define the difference between the Vagyr playstyle and the Hiigaran. It would be nice to see their research tree and recruiting method modified however to keep the balance between the two races equal.

But now I'm off subject. :-P

[Rabbit]

You know, what always takes me for a loop is how smart players realize the game issues, and yet it takes companies so long to fix them. Of course, I'm sure it's more difficult from their side; but even so, every game we play has some kind of bug or another. Take Warhammer 40k for example: Their rulebook is exceptionally vague, which has thus given rise to a severe dependency on outside judges (i.e., official representatives of Games Workshop that work independently for various gaming stores). Since Games Workshop takes so long to release their erratas, these judges have gained quite an influence in the gaming league, if only because they are the only people who can make rules calls; and believe me, they don't always agree among one another.

To rant a little longer, if we (you and me) sat down are read through the Warhammer rulebook, you would undoubtedly become frustrated as well. I mean, some of these mistakes are merely grammatical, but some call into question in my mind at least the technical consultants that G.W. employees for clarity. I'm serious, we could do a better job at writing their manuals. A good majority of the time, players and even judges think the rules say one thing, and with the release of a new errata, we come to find out that we were mistaken. Sometimes, even the erratas are vague.

Case in point: Under the wargear section of the rulebook, there is an asterisk next to certain items. At the bottom of the page, it states that, "Terminators may only take items marked with an asterisk."

This sentence can mean one of two things:

1st meaning: Terminators and only terminators may use these marked items.
Xmple:
I ask, "Can anyone use items marked with an asterisk?"
You reply, "Terminators may only use items marked with an asterisk."

2nd meaning: The only items terminators may use are items marked with an asterisk.
Xmple:
I ask, "Are terminators allowed to use any item from the wargear section?"
You reply, "Terminators may only use items marked with an asterisk."

As you can see, #1 denotes the exclusive rights of terminators to use these items; while #2 states the limiting condition wherein terminators may only choose those aforementioned items. If I were making the rules call, I would say that #2 is the correct interpretation, because it is the 'more common' understanding for the way in which the sentence is structured. However, I must say that G.W. often utilizes less than common usages for sentence structure when it comes to meaning, and for this reason, we are still left in the dark.

I emailed Games Workshop, hoping to get some clarification. Two months later (yes, that long), here was their response: "Terminators may use items marked with an asterisk." Uh...hmm, not really the clarification we were looking for.

Anyway, what was the original topic (heh). Hopefully, they will do something to give Hilgaran a boost, rather than dumbing down Vagyr.

[Vable]

I think the Hiigaran have had a sufficient boost..

I think the way to tweak the Vagyr without 'dumbing them down' (which I also hope never happens), is to adjust the flow of their research tree and recruiting options to match the 'stepping stone' effect of the Hiigaran. Not so much that they are as slow to research, just enough that they don't have quite the avalache of an advantage

[grant]

Well the Hiigaran are stonger in every cataglory, it just takes them longer to get there...the vager only ever have 2 levels of research at most to improve their ships, while the hiigaran get up to 3

[Vable]

Unless the numbers are changed, the Vagyr were originally stronger statistically. Though the specific numbers vary alot by class. I know that originally if you compared battlecruiser to battlecruiser, the Vagyr was substatially superior in offensive power. As well as stronger in armor and speed over its hiigaran brother. The 'difference' was that the Hiigaran weapon systems are turret based, (covering a greater arc of around the ship) while the Vagyr weapon systems are front mounted, which makes for strong offense, poor defense.

Since the new change, all that could have very well changed. It might be worth the time to play human vs human, but without intentional combat, specifically to verify the numbers of all the ships in their pre and post upgraded states on both sides. A rather lengthy undertaking, but interesting none the less.

[Rabbit]

I was under the impression that the Hilgaran battlecruiser had a better offense, but that it required mass amounts of upgrades; whereas the Vagyr battlecruiser was fairly well off from the get go.

[Vable]

The Vagyer Cruiser is quicker to upgrade AND has superior firepower... the downfall of the Vagyr cruiser however, is that all its weapons are forward facing, making it require escort ships to defend it, and making it only good on attack.

Hiigaran Cruisers use turret based technology, so don't pack as much firepower, but can more easily defend themselves in a mass melee